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Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

2 December, 2016 - 17:37
Author: NMERider
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:37 am (GMT -8)

FWIW - Launching the Freedom X 14.5M last week in near-nil wind from the shallow upper slope of Marshall Peak w/ replay at 1/5 speed.


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Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

2 December, 2016 - 16:18
Author: EricH
Subject: Re: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:18 am (GMT -8)

AIRTHUG wrote: Watch a track runner at the start of a race... for just the first stride or two, as they get up to speed, they have a pretty aggressive forward lean. Why? They're accelerating of course. If their legs sped up and out from under their shoulders, they'd fall over backwards! But as they get up to speed... even the fastest of sprinters... they then have a much more upright position.

A track runner is just accelerating his own body, and trying to do it as quickly as possible. We are pushing a glider to accelerate IT, if we walk, jog, and run, leaning our shoulders far forward is unnecessary to get it going. As you said, they are running UPRIGHT at full speed.
My addressing this subject wasn't about initial acceleration, it was about those claiming that we should be pursuing the head forward, through the control frame acceleration throughout the entire run.

I'm going flying for a few days, so won't be able to join in this discussion fun for a while, appreciate that it has stayed civilized so far.

As far as having the cg of my body behind the cg of the glider when launching, I don't think there's enough theory to convince me of that. I know what I feel, I know what I see on video, and logically it doesn't make sense to say you're going to pull the glider into the air with your cg behind the object you're pulling.

If you look at my signature line below, you can see hundreds of my launches at many sites, with many gliders, in many conditions. I'm not saying I always stay in front of my glider while launching it, but that's my goal...
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Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

2 December, 2016 - 15:35
Author: rockjock729
Subject: Aero Tow
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:35 am (GMT -8)

I understand how you can aerotow, but how do you aerotow launch on the dolly? I am looking at how you sit upright with the control bar down by your feet, I do not see how you can hold the the ropes on the dolly when launching. I fly primarely down in FL. Not many cliff launches here.
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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Ants in my Ass!!

2 December, 2016 - 14:21
Author: Windlord
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:21 am (GMT -8)


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Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

2 December, 2016 - 03:15
Author: AIRTHUG
Subject: Re: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:15 pm (GMT -8)

EricH wrote:
We're told not to shoulder steer, but we're told to shoulder accelerate?
We're told to take long strides, but I want anyone reading this right now to stand up, lean forward, then try and reach your leg forward for a long stride.
Now, position your shoulders over your hips, or even a little back, and notice how far your leg can reach forward.

What you are addressing here... isn't that someone said something wrong or incorrect... what you are addressing is BAD INSTRUCTION.

Example: Don't steer with shoulders. Well... it's actually don't cross control. So, it's actually steer by shifting your WEIGHT, and don't get fooled into thinking to did this when all you actually moved was your shoulders. Technically, if you keep your hips centered and move just your shoulders, you've successfully weight shifted, and you can totally shoulder steer. I do lead with my shoulders sometimes- often maybe even- when I don't want as large an input as moving my ENTIRE mass would give me... I can move half my body- half the mass- more accurately because I'd need to move it twice as far for the same result as moving my whole body. So... "don't shoulder steer"... someone meant well, was trying to help... but gave what is actually a pretty crap teaching cue to accomplish what they wanted.

Example: We're told to shoulder-accelerate. Not sure where you heard or read that... but whomever said it, must not have quantified that command very well. I sure hope it wasn't me! Watch a track runner at the start of a race... for just the first stride or two, as they get up to speed, they have a pretty aggressive forward lean. Why? They're accelerating of course. If their legs sped up and out from under their shoulders, they'd fall over backwards! But as they get up to speed... even the fastest of sprinters... they then have a much more upright position. Why- because upper and lower body are now moving at the same speed... lower body just needs to keep working to keep it up, but there's very little drag on upper body slowing it down, so almost no forward lean is needed anymore. Starting running with a hang glider is like that, but more exagerated... because it's not JUST upper body and lower body, it's the thing sitting atop of upper body, THEN upper body, and FINALLY lower body. If you balanced a base ball bat in your hand, and then tried to run, it would tip backward like how a hang glider pops the nose when someone launches poorly. But if you give the top of that bat a little nudge in the direction you want to go FIRST, you can run "back under" the falling bat, allowing to to keep that bat in your hand, AND run the direction you wanted. So yea, when launching a hang glider, it's helpful to lead that initial start with the shoulders, getting the glider and upper body moving, before lower body begins accelerating. BUT THAT LEANING FORWARD IS ONLY REQUIRED DURING THE PART WHERE THE PILOT'S LEGS ARE PROVIDING THE ACCELERATION! Like you said and I agreed- adding weight to the glider makes it go faster- so if you read my long strides article, that's the whole idea. Getting lots of AIRSPEED in a launch isn't actually much a matter of "running fast" So again, when you say we're supposed to "shoulder accelerate"... yea... but only during a very specific and pretty short lived window... and without that specification, you'd be right, it's wrong. But actually... it's probably just poor instruction.

A bit off topic... but I've come to realize how POOR hang gliding instruction is... pretty much everywhere. I include myself in that... I did it just as wrong and poorly as many others, for quite a long time... sorry if stating this irks any of you... but the quoted line above, and that it's actually just a misunderstanding from unclear- therefore poor- instruction... is just today's example of what I see many times every damn day... and it makes me sad. I guess I'm venting...

Hell... look at how many pages of posts this thread has, over how many years... about something we, as a community, should have a VERY solid understanding and execution of, BEFORE we ever attempt aviation any higher than we can fall without being injured. But here we are... launching off mountains... not fully (or for some, even PARTIALLY) understanding or controlling AofA?!
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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Ants in my Ass!!

2 December, 2016 - 03:09
Author: Lucky_Chevy
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:09 pm (GMT -8)

Fun video. Thanks for posting.

Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

2 December, 2016 - 02:47
Author: AIRTHUG
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:47 pm (GMT -8)

Good stuff here guys- particularly dbotos! THANK YOU for that contribution!

I certainly do not claim to know it all... in fact... I sometimes feel like I know just enough, to know how little I actually know... (but somehow I do often end up knowing more than many others in this sport, due in part to growing up immersed in it, working and studying endlessly, being an only child with no friends to do anything else with, being obsessive compulsive at times, and totally unpopular with the ladies). So I try to share what I've picked up or deduced over time...

dbotos explained that in a way I totally got it- and it's a different way than I had broken it down in my mind previously- and I totally dig it. Supremely appreciative (BTW, who da heck are you?!)

Only thing I'll add- back to the "angle of the hang loop" thing- please keep in mind that the angle of the hang loop (or the harness mains, IE pilot's hips, IE roughly their CG) doesn't mean didley aerodynamically! What *does* matter, is the TOTAL-CG of the AIRCRAFT... which is pilot + wing combined. Getting too zoomed in on minutia like the angle of the hang loop is troublesome, because it's such a narrow scope it makes it near impossible to see the full picture. In this case- where the total aircraft's CG actually is.

Hint: Have you ever seen a student on the training hill attempt to launch with a death grip on the down tubes, doing something that should be called HOLD ON gliding 'cause it sure 'aint HANG gliding?! How well does that go, and why? If you captured a side view of someone doing this, would their HANG LOOP appear much out of place when compared to a sweet, successful launch?
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Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

1 December, 2016 - 23:49
Author: sunnyjim
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:49 pm (GMT -8)

Advantages over Supine are we can still do a hang check before launch. Cant do that in Supine. We can still use standard Dollies to AeroTow. WE have more crash protection flying ABOVE the basetube than BELOW as well as now we have an obstacle in front of us to prevent our bodies from swinging through in the event of a crash, which Supine does too, but your body has already hit the dirt....
the potential safety advantages flying suprone with this bar attached could really add up to something special. Add up the ingrediants:
1. we are flying feet first instead of head first....that is huge. Has to be. Would I rather jump off a five foot high deck and land on my feet or my head?
2.There is a basetube under us to absorb initial shock.
3.there is now a bar in front of us to prevent swing through.
4. The first thing that is going to hit the bar are the main suspension straps which are in FRONT of the pilot loaded up with one G. It is kinda like flying with a built in bumper to absorb g force.
5. AND....best thing of all....these PG harnesses already have built in airbags or foam under the spine of the pilot!!!!!!
6. Add some low stretch shock cord running Through the FlyBar and Through each downtube and we now have a "safety net' of sorts if the crash is so hard that a Pilot does indeed swing through and break the bar...
7. Add a set of good wheels to the mix....

hang Gliding has never had this much safety potential.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

1 December, 2016 - 23:48
Author: sunnyjim
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:48 pm (GMT -8)

Advantages over Supine are we can still do a hang check before launch. Cant do that in Supine. We can still use standard Dollies to AeroTow. WE have more crash protection flying ABOVE the basetube than BELOW as well as now we have an obstacle in front of us to prevent our bodies from swinging through in the event of a crash, which Supine does too, but your body has already hit the dirt....
the potential safety advantages flying suprone with this bar attached could really add up to something special. Add up the ingrediants:
1. we are flying feet first instead of head first....that is huge. Has to be. Would I rather jump off a five foot high deck and land on my feet or my head?
2.There is a basetube under us to absorb initial shock.
3.there is now a bar in front of us to prevent swing through.
4. The first thing that is going to hit the bar are the main suspension straps which are in FRONT of the pilot loaded up with one G. It is kinda like flying with a built in bumper to absorb g force.
5. AND....best thing of all....these PG harnesses already have built in airbags or foam under the spine of the pilot!!!!!!
6. Add some low stretch shock cord running Through the FlyBar and Through each downtube and we now have a "safety net' of sorts if the crash is so hard that a Pilot does indeed swing through and break the bar...
7. Add a set of good wheels to the mix....

hang Gliding has never had this much safety potential.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

1 December, 2016 - 23:38
Author: sunnyjim
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:38 pm (GMT -8)

thanks RED for making the link to the Video...
To answer NICO, no modifications have been made and none are required. The Geometry of a regular hang glider rigged to be flown in the prone position happens to work out perfectly with this invention.
I have perfect pitch and roll control flying my old super sport, which admittedly has easy handling. I have not experienced any loss of roll control even though my center of mass is probably a little higher than a pilot in the prone position.
Of course, I am going to get one of those super sleek, pod style PG harnesses to get all streamlined and the more I streamline, which will require lowering my upper body somewhat, the lower my center of mass will be and the greater my roll control will be, theoretically.....but the truth is I have had this set up in some serious rock and roll air and I have not noticed any loss of roll authority.
It is winter here in the NW so I have not had a chance to try it out at Chelan mid day july conditions, but from what I have experienced so far it is going to do just fine.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Forward raked king posts

1 December, 2016 - 23:14
Author: tedstone
Subject: Avian Puma
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:14 pm (GMT -8)

Hello,

I have recently become a dealer for Avian Hang Gliders and have two Puma's 147 sf and 63 lbs; one Puma is for sale and mine is available for demo to qualified pilots. They fly very well and are very good quality gliders.

Steve Tedstone
Greenville SC

Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

1 December, 2016 - 22:14
Author: Nicos
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:14 pm (GMT -8)

REALLY interested in this thread, as I have a C7 injury and flying in prone for too long is pretty uncomfortable.

Has your glider's wires or geometry been modified? Do you have as much pitch authority on launch/landing? Any advantages/disadvantages between supline and suprone?

So many questions. I hope to do it soon with a Airborne Sting3...

Hang gliding general :: RE: Stories about Larry Tudor?

1 December, 2016 - 22:08
Author: circle with eagles
Subject: TUDOR
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:08 pm (GMT -8)

Hi Ariann,

We knew Larry from when he started flying in Colo and when he was flying in Utah.
We have quite a few of Larry's artifacts from love letters to trophies. He never returned to claim these items.
I recall one of his adventures was flying with a tame Eagle that would land on his kingpost perch. This was at the Point of mountain and made into a video.
I have an interesting article of him flying for a tandem distance record in the Owens Valley. The OZ report has this article and many more.
Larry excelled in contests but his primary desire was to break cross country records.
He continuously broke the long distance record and his last record was not beaten for a decade. I believe he was the best hang glider pilot of all time.
The stories are endless.
Charlie and Carolyn Baughman

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Ants in my Ass!!

1 December, 2016 - 19:40
Author: Rcmsolo
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:40 am (GMT -8)

Very Nice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hang gliding general :: RE: Injured pilot needs help

1 December, 2016 - 19:35
Author: NMERider
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:35 am (GMT -8)

dbotos wrote: ....Thanks for the details. We can't change the past but we can certainly learn from it. Not to suggest using equipment as a crutch for mistakes, but do you think the outcome would have been a lot different if the glider had wheels on it? 8" pneumatic wheels probably would have helped but the ground looked soft and the grass somewhat tall. The glider may still have pitched over but probably not as violently since the control bar would have been free to move rather than digging in. Joseph's best bet may have been to abort the base leg turn and land crosswind assuming there was room to fly straight and complete the landing.

I will comment that it is extremely dangerous to try to tighten up a base leg turn near the ground. If a turn is initiated with excess air speed going in then tightening that turn can be used to bleed off the excess airspeed. However, if we are already in a coordinated turn and we try to tighten it and stay coordinated, we will lose more altitude faster to gain the extra speed needed than if we gain that extra speed while flying with wings level. In other words, if you need to make a tight base leg turn then you need extra airspeed BEFORE you initiate the turn. Trying to gain the extra airspeed while already in the turn near the ground can be disastrous.

This is a set of maneuvers that can easily be practiced at a safe altitude in order to appreciate the difference between a tight turn that began with the necessary airspeed and a coordinated turn that gets tightened up during the turn.

Another thing to bear in mind is that when we are physically and mentally fatigued, we will revert to muscle memory and perform on automatic without realizing what we are doing. The way to overcome this is with training and lots of it so that our muscles are programed to do the right thing. Alternately, we can train our judgement to recognize when we are fatigued and likely to revert to muscle memory and to give ourselves more room for error.
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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Ants in my Ass!!

1 December, 2016 - 19:01
Author: NMERider
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:01 am (GMT -8)

Very entertaining. The ending was a real cliffhanger!
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Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

1 December, 2016 - 18:44
Author: RobertKesselring
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:44 am (GMT -8)

Thanks dbotos. You pretty much re-explained the idea I was trying to get at in a different way that may make more sense to some. We may both be wrong, but I think it's helpful to have the idea explained as well as possible so that if it is wrong, someone with the right idea can more precisely explain the error.

The only thing I'd add is that I'd say it's more then just "conceivable" as there are already 3 photos posted of it actually happening.

I think EricH's verticle hang strap will provide the maximum control authority for any given speed, as a vertical hang strap would mean all the force available is pulling on the glider. An angle hang-strap though is what happens when accelerating, and since speed=control, it's a case of "do you want more control now due to weight or more control later due to speed?" This may be a case where the optimal technique depends on site, weather, and exactly which mili-second of the launch you're looking at.

I would submit the following screen shot that I took from a youtube video of John Heiney. While this is not a launch, it does illustrate aggressive acceleration using gravity, and the hang strap is angled back with respect to gravity. While it is an extreme example, it illustrates the same idea...
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Hang gliding general :: RE: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar"

1 December, 2016 - 18:32
Author: rockjock729
Subject: great work!
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:32 am (GMT -8)

That looks like a great setup. I would be very interested in construction. Pictures of how they mount.
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Hang gliding general :: RE: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD

1 December, 2016 - 18:09
Author: dbotos
Subject: Re: THE GREAT BIG ANGLE OF ATTACK THREAD
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:09 am (GMT -8)

RobertKesselring wrote: Since gravity only pulls straight down, we have to look to another force for forward acceleration. The only other force acting on the pilot is applied through the hang strap, so if the hang strap isn't angled forward, then the pilot is no longer accelerating.

Gravity does pull straight down, but when you have sloped ground, gravity is no longer normal (perpendicular) to the ground. You can decompose the acceleration due to gravity into normal (a_n) and forward (a_f) acceleration components (see attachment).

Imagine for a moment that you're just running down a slope with no glider. With gravity being constant and assuming a constant slope angle, a_n and a_f will be constant. With your mass (m), the ground will be pushing back on the bottoms of your feet with force F_n = m * a_n. Notice that a_n is less than a_g. This explains why you feel light on your feet while running down a hill (in the extreme case (running down a vertical wall) F_n ≈ 0). Now take a_f being constant - by definition, a constant acceleration means ever-increasing velocity. At a certain point, that velocity is going to reach a level where you can't run fast enough to keep up. Either you tumble face first (velocity of your upper body exceeds velocity of your lower body) or you have to use your feet to slow yourself down (you apply force to the ground in the forward direction and the ground pushes back, countering some portion of m * a_f).

With a glider, its lift eventually tightens the hang strap and instead of the ground pushing back against you with force F_n, the glider is pulling on you with that force. If the pilot and glider are both moving down the slope with the same forward speed (v_f) at a given instant, it's conceivable that the hang strap could be roughly perpendicular to the slope.

Think about a landing where you don't flare at all, but just run it out. There's a time when your feet just start touching the ground that the hang strap would be vertical and both you and the glider are moving at the same speed. I think the same can happen at a certain point during launch, except your feet would be just leaving the ground.

Hang gliding Videos :: Ants in my Ass!!

1 December, 2016 - 18:03
Author: frederic
Subject: Ants in my Ass!!
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:03 am (GMT -8)

https://vimeo.com/193914908