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Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

28 May, 2017 - 02:56
Author: NMERider
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:56 pm (GMT -8)

lizzard wrote: ....Those who don't fly in comps really would benefit from going back to ass glider as it chalk and cheese for top landing, flywall landings and just fa[ff]ing about in bubbles or whatever... You were absolutely brill in this Peter Fonda flic...

Link

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/glidela

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

28 May, 2017 - 00:50
Author: lizzard
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:50 pm (GMT -8)

waveview wrote: Lindsay, the wing in your photographs looks a bit like a Moyes Mars 170 (very popular novice/training wing back in the 1980's) These wings also had the non-floating type fixed X bars. I noticed that Icaro in Europe also produced a Mars (looks even more similar to your photos) and was produced up to about year 2000, it appears. It might be one of the Icaro Mars wings?

Yes I had as mars 170 and its why i wanted this glider (i have bought it it now). The mars flew like my previous skydart and all of these wings had light cloth and solid air frames, but its not a mars 170 I suppose they had it right back then but did not know it , for this style of glider and it seems that not much was changed ..fun..Malibu and of course the ww and north wing models that I dont see .

there is a ww model with flexible tips ...now that would make me spend !

Those who don't fly in comps really would benefit from going back to ass glider as it chalk and cheese for top landing, flywall landings and just fagging about in bubbles or whatever...i guess im preaching to the converted in most cases but i see far less top landings these days ...i get whacked after 30 mins and want to fly again after 20 ,,,ranting ..thanks for the positive input . I suppose flying to me is simply enjoying the 3d movement ability ...and a keel pocket safety wire is a good idea with this oldie.

Thanks Red for that well taken opinion ..it will be my reference point!

The luff line issue is well known to me and it may be that my coastal test flight is without them but i will observe carefully ..the "just slack rule" But thanks for pointing that out . lots of people will approach this differently and again well received.
In my experience, in all inland thermal flying, you are a test pilot. On the coast ..not so much ..but that is just me, getting on a bit now..

.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

28 May, 2017 - 00:19
Author: SeeMarkFly
Subject: learn to spel
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:19 pm (GMT -8)

Egg Corns are words that results from a mishearing or misinterpretation.
Some of my favorites:
Amberlamps = Ambulance
For all intensive purposes = for all intent and purposes
chicken spots = chicken pox
feeble position = fetal position

Browse them here...
http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT

complacency about complacency is probably the enemy.

Hang gliding general :: RE: 1000km

27 May, 2017 - 20:11
Author: magentabluesky
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:11 pm (GMT -8)

The Details:

Daniel Sazhin wrote: In January 2015, it occurred to me that the length of the ridge from Blairstown to the end of the Tuscarora Mountain is 300km and Mifflin is around 100km from the end of it. With three runs back and forth, that amounts to 900km and the short run from Mifflin rounds it out to 1000km. This was a fantastic solution as it completely resolved the “bottleneck” at Hawk Mountain. Early in the day, all the significant transitions were to be downwind. Furthermore, the whole range of the task was confined to a smaller ridge system, which meant the weather did not need to be as special to make the day work. I was sure that this was the most doable 1000km task on the Appalachian ridge system, particularly for a 1-26. All the was needed was to have a long day, reasonable thermals and a patient crew to drive me out to Mifflin the night before and bring the trailer to Blairstown, where I was to complete my flight.

OLC Daniel Sazhin (US) 08.05.2016

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: 1-axis gimbal footage?

27 May, 2017 - 19:10
Author: DMarley
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:10 am (GMT -8)

Placing the imu on the camera's mount is going to complicate your pid calcs quite a bit I believe, since now the system is a positive feedback loop, rather than 'neutral' feedback. This method will either make you get up close and personal with Harry Nyquist and PID theory, or you will just end up with no hair.
Placing the imu on the glider-side will be much less math overhead for the processor, and less for you as well. I would start there, then if you decide that you want to continue further, then place the imu on the camera side. There is plenty of PID related programs for the 328p out there that you probably don't have to completely generate your own code. I'd first search Adafruit's site, then Github, Brokking, Andreas Spiess, etc.

Hang gliding general :: RE: 1000km

27 May, 2017 - 18:57
Author: rongleason
Subject: 1000K
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:57 am (GMT -8)

Magentabluesky, from a pure numbers stand point I agree with you. The fly in the ointment I see has to do with launch. Are tows available in a favorable area? Is there a launch at the right part of the ridge?

I would like to see an attempt

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

27 May, 2017 - 18:41
Author: DMarley
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:41 am (GMT -8)

Line vs rope.

Rope is unemployed cordage. In other words, when it is stored on a manufacturer's spool or as a coil and has not been prepared for a specific task, it is merely a rope. A material.

On the other hand, when you prepare a rope for a specific task, it becomes employed and is a line. The line is labeled by the job it performs; for example, tow line, VG line, leech line, harness line, etc.

Hang gliding general :: 1000km

27 May, 2017 - 17:25
Author: magentabluesky
Subject: 1000km
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:25 am (GMT -8)

Is a 1000km possible in a foot launched hang glider?

Just a little over a year ago Daniel Sazhin flew a Schweizer 1-26 over a 1000km triangle. In 2009 Ron Schwartz just missed a 1000km in a 1-26.

Facebook Story 1-26 1000km

Comparing the Swift performance numbers to the Schweizer 1-26, they are very similar. The Swift has a Vne of 120kmh/74mph with the best L/D of 27/1 at 70kmh/43mph. The 1-26 best L/D of 23/1 is at about 50mph.

1-26 Performance

Swift Performance PDF (page 24)

The 1-26 pilots have shown the way.

I believe 1000km is possible in a foot launched hang glider.

1000km = 621.371 miles.

Current Records: FAI Records

Straight Distance: O-1 764km Dustin Martin, O-2 715.2 Robin Hamilton

Distance over a Triangular Course: O-1 357.12km Tomas Suchanek, O-2 301.7km Robin Hamilton

Out and Return Distance: O-1 353km Thomas Weissenberger, O-2 366.4km Jacques Bott

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

27 May, 2017 - 16:58
Author: red
Subject: Hang glider pilets lern to spel
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:58 am (GMT -8)

-
Accept / except

Affect / effect

Flair / flare


_________________
Cheers,
........Red.........................
Pssst! New pilot? Free advice, maybe worth the price,
http://www.xmission.com/~red/
H4, Moyes X2, Falcon Tandem, HES Tracer, Quantum 'chute

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

27 May, 2017 - 16:47
Author: red
Subject: Can anybody identify this wing
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:47 am (GMT -8)

Lizzard,

How to measure the sail area of a glider, really:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Measuring_the_Sail_Area_of_a_glider


_________________
Cheers,
........Red.........................
Pssst! New pilot? Free advice, maybe worth the price,
http://www.xmission.com/~red/
H4, Moyes X2, Falcon Tandem, HES Tracer, Quantum 'chute

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

27 May, 2017 - 16:46
Author: Tormod
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:46 am (GMT -8)

Then vs than

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

27 May, 2017 - 13:27
Author: TjW
Subject: Re: Hang glider pilots learn to spel
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:27 am (GMT -8)

aeroexperiments wrote: "you have 4 breaks and 1 clutch"

breaks= brakes
fleg = fledge

To be updated... add your own

My own pet peeves:

A hanger is what you put your shirt on.
A hangar is used to store airplanes.

A cord is a small diameter rope.
A chord is the longitudanal dimension of an airfoil.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

27 May, 2017 - 09:15
Author: waveview
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:15 am (GMT -8)

Lindsay, the wing in your photographs looks a bit like a Moyes Mars 170 (very popular novice/training wing back in the 1980's) These wings also had the non-floating type fixed X bars. I noticed that Icaro in Europe also produced a Mars (looks even more similar to your photos) and was produced up to about year 2000, it appears. It might be one of the Icaro Mars wings?
_________________
Don't let gravity get you down.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Hang glider pilots learn to spel

27 May, 2017 - 08:39
Author: Comet
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:39 am (GMT -8)

RobertKesselring wrote: Comet.
I can't tell if you're being serious or speaking in jest.
If you're being serious, I disagree. I know several people who are extremely intelligent and well educated who have less than perfect English. For some of them, English is a 2'nd or 3'rd language. For others, it's just not their strong area.

Robert,

Your two funny.

Nigel Hewitt wrote:
I have a distinctive regional accent and people seem to think it marks me out as intelligent. I know that they're kidding themselves. I was just born at Oxford in the UK.


Nigel,

Four a Brit, yew speak pretty good English.

AIRTHUG wrote: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ2SHSg5rIY[/youtube]

Did anyone notice the "Grammer" in the video?



.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

27 May, 2017 - 08:10
Author: red
Subject: Can anybody identify this wing
Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:10 am (GMT -8)

lizzard wrote: Thanks for that .. It was written in 1980's "permanent marker" so there is nothing there, It has 50mm x bars so that should have it around 1990 or so? lizzard,

You may have sail shrinkage issues there, which will change the reflex settings. You may need to adjust the rib strings to match the "new" sail size. Once the glider is identified, DHV should have the reflex measurements that you need. Almost certainly, what you have there will not be correct for reflex.

A strong "black light" (used indoors or at night) may make the writing on the DHV sticker visible again. The yellow sticker on the keel near the nose is marked for 1992. What is the indistinct word on that yellow sticker? Quote: Is there opinion on floating vs locked to keel x bars ? Sure. My opinion is DON'T make such changes unless the manufacturer did it on later models, and even then, just copy exactly what they did. Otherwise, you are a test pilot, which does not pay very well. Quote: all metal to metal point have no corrosion .so I will pose another question ...what to preserve the tubes with internally . . . Thanks Apply automotive paste wax (the Carauba type), inside and out. Apply, let dry, and gently wipe away any excess wax film from the outside of the tubes. Do not buff. You can wax the inside of the tubes with a wad of natural sponge, attached to the end of a push stick. When you can start and end with the sponge soaked in wax, the inside job is done. If the sponge comes out dry, you still need more wax in there. You can tell by the push pressure when the sponge goes dry, inside the tube. There is no need to wipe the inside of the tube, but you can run the dry sponge inside later, if you wish.


_________________
Cheers,
........Red.........................
Pssst! New pilot? Free advice, maybe worth the price,
http://www.xmission.com/~red/
H4, Moyes X2, Falcon Tandem, HES Tracer, Quantum 'chute

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: 1-axis gimbal footage?

27 May, 2017 - 05:41
Author: dbotos
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:41 pm (GMT -8)

Another thing I'd like to figure out (that Doug's mention of rolling average reminded me of) is how fast does the system need to be? If glider roll rate is X deg/sec (for typical recreational flight), how much faster should the gimbal system be? Is the response dominated by the actuator speed (i.e. the time to take input from the IMU, calculate a correction, and send that to the actuator is so much smaller than the actuator movement time that it's negligible)?

I'm kind of thinking of it like a constant game of tag between the glider and the gimbal. The two are standing there and the glider runs off without warning. The gimbal has to be watching the glider's position to say "hey, glider's not standing right next to me anymore, but is now x units away". Gimbal's brain has to process that and send a message to its legs to go catch glider as quickly as possible. But gimbal has to factor in that during the chase, glider's position could be still be changing from that initial position of x units from start. And gimbal doesn't want to run past glider and start some sort of oscillatory pattern.

In reality it's more like gimbal trying to stay in one place and glider's pulling on the rug beneath its feet, pulling it along to some other position. But I think the tag analogy is more straightfoward and could be used to show the potential benefits of PID control:

proportional: glider is x units away; therefore gimbal needs to run certain distance or speed

integral: glider has been just out of arm's reach for a while - gimbal needs to move closer or pick up speed

derivative - glider is running at certain speed with head start; gimbal must extrapolate position to intercept glider based on gimbal's faster running speed. If glider slows down, gimbal should slow down too so as not to run past.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

27 May, 2017 - 05:08
Author: lizzard
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:08 pm (GMT -8)

Thanks for that ..
It was written in 1980's "permanent marker"
so there is nothing there, It has 50mm x bars so that should have it around 1990 or so?? ..the fittings are well made . The sail is not noticeably faded at all ..I'm sure it will handle like it looks it should .
The battens have string, not bungees which i find unusual.
Another feature is the that the x bars are locked to the keel but could easily be floated . Is there opinion on floating vs locked to keel x bars ?

Back in the late seventies I had a Steve Cohen glider ( Australia)called a skydart2 and it had the best handling ever ..nasty stall but that was then ..much like a mars or a fun with an under surface fin that you could easily catch your foot stirrup loop in on big push outs. It looked very sexy but the fins are gone from all gliders now.

I wonder what the actual effects of locked x bars on a ss glider has ?
I see it as an advantage that there is no lateral inertia from the x bars and the sail, which is clearly floating (deep keel pocket) works on its own.
I hope I'm making sense and value the wealth of opinion here.
The bright anodizing is pristine, very light corrosion "light powdery is evident in the internals of the tubes ..all metal to metal point have no corrosion .so I will pose another question ...what to preserve the tubes with internally , my replacement options are limited , I'm not seeking advice just practical opinion based on the fact that I would be flying her and accept the risk implied by an older glider .




Thanks

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: 1-axis gimbal footage?

27 May, 2017 - 03:41
Author: dbotos
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:41 pm (GMT -8)

DMarley wrote: Dave,
Using arduino ide delays to attempt to correct problems just creates more problems and prevents the processor from doing things efficiently. Instead of delays, try to do a moving average calc to smooth out the outputs from the imu. Graph your inputs vs averaged inputs vs time and see what works that way. The raw inputs are probably scattered a bit. You'll have to find a running average set length that will provide reasonably smooth curves yet yield fast enough response rate. That is if putting the servo on it's own power supply doesn't correct the problem.
Try using the Atmel Studio IDE rather than the arduino ide. You'll be glad that you did later on if you make the switch. It's not the easiest to print things, but it has a much better debugger, and the whole of the ide is professional and lightyears beyond arduino's poor attempt.
You may find that wrapping the servo wires around a torus ring a few times may help reduce signal interference.

All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth .... oscilloscope and a logic analyzer!

Doug,

Doing the moving average is a good idea. Bouncy in gonna be bouncy out unless you do something to smooth in between.

I'll have to check out that Atmel Studio and see if I can dig up a torus.

Thanks,
David

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: 1-axis gimbal footage?

27 May, 2017 - 03:36
Author: dbotos
Subject: Re: 1-axis gimbal footage?
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:36 pm (GMT -8)

red wrote: Everybody in your game needs an Oscilloscope. Here is a DIY oscilloscope that uses your PC sound card, and a few extra pieces. The guy mentions Hantek, if you want an off-the-shelf commercial solution, still much cheaper than a fer-real commercial oscilloscope. Have fun . . .

http://homediyelectronics.com/projects/howtomakeafreesoundcardpcoscilloscope/
-

Red,

Thanks. At some point I'm sure I'll need one. Free to sub-$100 is pretty good considering what the Tektronix DPOs like what we have a work cost.

David

Hang gliding general :: RE: Can anybody identify this wing

27 May, 2017 - 03:27
Author: dbotos
Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:27 pm (GMT -8)

hersteller = manufacturer

baujahr = construction year

leermasse = empty weight

zuladung = payload

geschwindigkeit = speed

werk-nr = factory no (maybe serial number?)

eingeflogen = flown (date)

LTZ-nr = ??? (inspection date?)

zahl der sitze = number of seats

The long paragraph says something about not subject to some sort of test and approval. Use of this equipment is at your own risk.

Is there anything readable in the blanks or is it worn off?