Air law observance

Steve Purdie's picture

I am just about to release an issue of windsock which is laden with rhetoric about the current poor observance of air law within our club.

I now hear that a serious mid-air collision occurred yesterday or thereabouts.

Firstly, if you witnessed the collision or the hang gliding crashes, please file an incident report with both the BHPA and the shgc.

Secondly, everybody needs to pull their socks up in this regard. We have had fatal mid-air collisions; We don't want any more.

It sounds to me that the time has come to re-establish the severe marshalling protocol of the days of yore, whereby every member was required to spend a certain number of weekends a year marshalling to ensure more sensible piloting by the remainder.

Full details will be thrashed out by the committee and published in due course.

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markp's picture

Mashalling

Good idea Steve Purdie I just think that some people almost have there eyes shut when it comes to flying around others and safety.
Firle couple of weeks back 32 in the air in one go. Too many as no sooner do you turn your head and look back you see the flight direction of pilots has altered dramatically to the point where you are forced to take serious avoiding measures which could have a potential to escalate should your next forced quick decision be the wrong one.

There is an attitude of I'm the best driver ego thing that we all naturally grow up with and i think that ego builds as i see it with many experienced pilots who can get pig headed about their position on the ridge flying through the air and won't push out to where they should do or fly at you in a couple of cases I have seen. It's a bit like some are playing a computer game and the joystick disconnects and forward direction movement doesn't alter course.
Ego = Death, Higher Altitude, Quickest altitude descent rates in the club just before you hit the ground and may be smile on your face if you survive.
I vote for a load hallow to NOTAM on the hill with a big stick to whip offenders to death should they breach the club rule and i get to go first please.

Neville Styke's picture

8 days a week.

"It sounds to me that the time has come to re-establish the severe marshalling protocol of the days of yore, whereby every member was required to spend a certain number of weekends a year marshalling to ensure more sensible piloting by the remainder."

This, of course, happened on a weekday so weekend marshalling wouldn't have helped.

" It's got to be rough to be good!"

David Martin's picture

Sounds sensible, but...

What would happen to members like myself, stuck in London and relying on public transport, having only had 5 days flying at southern sites in the last 2 years :-(

Is it really practical to expect *all* members to undertake marshalling?

I'm not sure I've seen any site, anywhere, where airlaw observance remains intact once a certain density of wings is reached, especially in scratchy conditions. Not saying that's the way it should be, but the reality seems to imply it is. One only has to look at the WPC footage recently taken at Roldanillo to see even the pros end up flying chaotically.

Too many members? Strict limits to the number on the ridge at a time? Time limits in scratchy conditions? Enforce bottom landing once a certain number are airborne?

JTurczak's picture

Regulations and things

It is worth pointing out that the incident occurred later in the day, after 4 pm, by which time most of the pilots had left and it was not an overcrowding issue.

This does not mean that marshaling is not something that should be implemented I just dont think that it would have directly made any difference to an incident that late in the day when with the few pilots left it could have been taken that marshaling was no longer needed.

Indirectly, however, Its probably not a bad idea but more from the viewpoint of a refresher for pilots doing the marshaling about taking more care when flying.

I think the same could be achieved by encouraging more pilots to take the coach course and get directly involved in helping out other pilots.

Yep after 4,maybe,maybe

Yep after 4,maybe,maybe not?
Weak lift everyone trying to stay up?
When lift becomes weak I have noticed that a few pilots try to play chicken to stay in the lift band. Regardless of If before 4 or after when this behaviour starts it's dangerous ,crowded or not !
I am not saying the para incident was because of this !? I did see it but can't be sure about what I did observe.
James G the pilot who crashed, made a bad decision to try and top land due to feeling that it was getting too dangerous to carry on scratching, yep he does know he should have landed at the bottom..!,..
What's interesting to me is why pilots were still taking off making it more soooooo , or flying on regardless when landing a para is so easy. Crowded and weak lift would suggest to me to land..

You maybe able to handle crowded conditions but flying with others when it is crowded could scare them into making silly fatal errors. Then it's down to the butterfly effect!
Fly safe keep others safe....
I do think that the people who read these posts probably understand, it's the ones that don't!?

Yep after 4,maybe,maybe

Yep after 4,maybe,maybe not?
Weak lift everyone trying to stay up?
When lift becomes weak I have noticed that a few pilots try to play chicken to stay in the lift band. Regardless of If before 4 or after when this behaviour starts it's dangerous ,crowded or not !
I am not saying the para incident was because of this !? I did see it but can't be sure about what I did observe.
James G the pilot who crashed, made a bad decision to try and top land due to feeling that it was getting too dangerous to carry on scratching, yep he does know he should have landed at the bottom..!,..
What's interesting to me is why pilots were still taking off making it more soooooo , or flying on regardless when landing a para is so easy. Crowded and weak lift would suggest to me to land..

You maybe able to handle crowded conditions but flying with others when it is crowded could scare them into making silly fatal errors. Then it's down to the butterfly effect!
Fly safe keep others safe....
I do think that the people who read these posts probably understand, it's the ones that don't!?

Crowded

Mid airs seem to happen when there are just a few in the air.
When its crowded everyone is on high alert.

Nigel's picture

Links...

...to incident report page please.

Steve Purdie's picture

Log in to website, then left

Log in to website, then left hand side menu, >Members>Add Content

FillC's picture

veiwing what was submitted?

can we see the incident reports or is it just the committee?
(I don't think the recently referred to incidents are on the BHPA site yet, not sure if there's some processing to be done at the BHPA end...)

Steve Purdie's picture

SHGC Incident reports

Are restricted to the committee, to encourage people to post them.

TTFN
Steve Purdie
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http://www.airworks.co.uk
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RichardG's picture

But..

On the other hand the BHPA site carries summary details of all 'informal investigations' and full reports on all formal ones, so what is gained by withholding that which is already or will be available on the BHPA site? Surely anything that's worth reporting to the committee should probably be reported to the BHPA too, or is that wrong? Is there really any merit in applying a different standard to SHGC reports than the BHPA does to ones reported to it?

JTurczak's picture

incident reports

I think even with the BHPA they do not immediately display the data.

With the formal ones I dont think you get to see the information until that investigation is complete. With the informal ones there is a delay. For example there is nothing showing for February yet.( I might be wrong and maybe none were logged for February)

I think there is a case that once all the data has been obtained about an incident of informing the membership. I think the problem is in the statement 'once all the data has been obtained'.

The point about restricting incident report viewing is to eliminate an awful lot of opinion being published about incidents. This becomes very relevant when more than just the pilot is involved. ie two pilots or pilot and another 3rd party.

So there is a balance between keeping the membership informed and keeping them informed correctly.

RichardG's picture

Yes,

There's nothing to be said against waiting 'until the appropriate stage' in producing a synopsis if nothing else, I only make the point that there seems to be no point in SHGC publishing less about any incidents on its sites than the BHPA (eventually) does anyway.

Munro Brett-Robertson's picture

Witness report

I did the Bhpa report, is there a specific one for shgc?
Edit - found it